Mehroon Manji, Hamida Manji and Zeenat Chohan
speak with
Jacqueline (Jackie) Manji
April 8th 2018
Audio Part 1
Audio Part 2
Transcribed PDF
Transcribed interview
Part 1
Jackie: I am Jackie and I’m the niece of Farida through marriage. Through Alkarim – who is the nephew. I’ve got the honour of doing the interview today with Hamida, Mehroon and Zeenat. I’ve prepared nine questions for each of you. Some of them are duplicates so we’ll be asking the same question of each of you. We’re going to going to do this in a relaxed way. No pressure. Answer from the heart as you wish. We’re going to do the first part of the first part of the interview, take a break and come back to finish off the rest of the questions. I’d like to start by asking Zeenat and we’ll go around the table. Tell us what was your relationship to Farida?
Zeenat: What can I say? The relationship I had with Farida was very, very special. She was, by relationship, an aunt. Really, truly she was a friend, a sister, a mentor, a mother, a grandmother. She pretty much covered all roles for me. We took to each other as if we were two halves of one soul. Whether we saw each other on a regular basis or not, we never felt we were away from each other. We always talked about it. This is the relationship we had. Often if one of us suddenly was thinking about the other, 90% of the time the phone would ring. She would say or I would say - Oh my god, I was thinking about you! That’s really the kind of relationship we had.
Jackie: Wonderful. Mehroon, what was your relationship?
Mehroon: My relationship with Farida, she was my sister-in-law. But the relationship we had was like friends. She would come and visit me frequently in 102 Collingsbrook. We would have tea and nasta. She would ask me about my social work as to how you’re handling it, tackling it. She would give me good advice on it. She would share her experiences with her clients she was trying to help. She was a wonderful person, very nice person, very helpful. I think she was born to help people. She has so much skill in her hand. She had done so many courses. She was using all this for other people. That is the relationship.
Jackie: And Hamida?
Hamida: With me she was my sister-in-law as well as a friend. She always helps me if I ask her anything about any kind of disease or any kind of sickness. She will come up and give me the medicine. She’ll say use this and use that. That will heal you. She always comes and visits me and tells me to do these things. Anything I had to ask, any problem I had, I’d talk to her and she always tried to comfort me and tried to help me out.
Jackie: Very nice. We’re actually going to delve back to some of these details you shared about Farida as we get deeper into the interview. We’ll have an opportunity to revisit some of these things you mentioned about her, some these absolutely wonderful personality traits and details of the relationships that you had. Next question is – where did you first meet and what where the circumstances of your meeting? So we’re going to go way back in time.
Zeenat: I clearly remember that day. Very clearly. When Mohamed left to go to Saudi Arabia, before going he was talking about he may be going to Taiwan or somewhere. Mohamed and I have always been very close. I was like a daughter to him. He was actually calling me his mom. Because he was with my parents when I was very young, when was born and I was a little baby. He literally looked after me. We have a very special relationship. When he left and he was saying - If I go to Taiwan you should come there, study there and come stay with me. He ended up going to Saudi Arabia. He was getting engaged to Farida in Mbeya before he left. Everybody was going for the engagement. I would have gone but by mom was in the hospital at the time. She has surgery. I couldn’t go for the engagement. I didn’t get a chance to actually meet her then. Then they left. He left and she left. They got married in London and went to Saudi Arabia.
I never actually got a chance to meet her until she came back to East Africa for a visit. She landed and she came to Arusha. She had heard about me from Mohamed. She said - I have to go and meet her. She came over to our house and I still very clearly remember. She was only there for a couple of days. But it was as if we’d known each other forever. Here was somebody who now was my favourite uncle’s partner and away from us and all that. We just bonded right away. We wrote to each other since then. She brought a couple of pieces of jewelry for me. I think you probably remember, Jackie, the one I used to wear with the butterfly. I always wore it. It was permanent fixture on me. I always had had it. I still have it and I still wear it quite a lot.
Then she went back to Saudi Arabia and we connected. When they moved to Canada, they came, I think, sometime in April or something like that of the same year I came, 1978. I arrived in June, probably a couple of months after them. Again, that was a time to really bond and really get to know each other. We spent a lot of time together looking for jobs. We’d go from place to place. And the fun we had when we were going out looking for jobs. In the early days they would get you to do typing tests and all of that. We’d both be sitting beside each other trying to do typing tests. Meanwhile we’re joking with each other and, of course, our typing results are terrible because here we are laughing at what we are going through. It was a fun time. Then we each found a job and started to work.
They were living near York University at the time and I was living with Amyn and Shamim. At some I moved in with them. She and I started to play squash together. We would go together to York University. I played five days a week. She played a couple of days a week. She and I played together. Then I found other people through her at York University whom I used to play with as well. A lot of time was spent together. One of the very first things we did, the three of us, because we came to a new country and as winter was approaching we felt – how do we actually get into the culture of this country. In the winter, most of our people hibernate and stay indoors. The three of us decide that we’re not going to do that. We’re going to go and take up skating and take up skiing. We did that. We did skating and skiing lessons together. A lot time where we really, really got to know each other much better. That’s how it all began. The bond was totally immediate.
Jackie: Mehroon, what was your first meeting?
Mehroon: The first time I met her was in Saudi when we were on our way here. We stayed with them for a few days. At that time we had time together. I think they got married in 1972. ‘73 we came here. That time we spent some days with them. They came for a vacation in 1975. We four us went to Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City together. We had a lovely time. I clearly don’t remember when they settled here. Was it 1978? That’s what I thought. Then I had a relationship with her. We were hanging out together. Sometime she would come home. Our relationship grew more. Before that, when she got engaged in Mbeya, I was not there. I think your dad did mention he went to drop her in Mbeya or somewhere. Then they got married in London, England in ‘72. When they moved here in ‘78 that’s when our relationship grew more and more. We became friends.
Jackie: Hamida, what was your first meeting with her?
Hamida: I did go for the engagement in Mbeya. I didn’t have much time to talk to her at that time. Then we went to Saudi Arabia. We stayed there. At that time we were quite close and we were going out everywhere. Then she came here. At that time we were getting together at my house watching all the videos whole night. She felt at that time we were watching so much. She used to be fiddling – I can’t sleep in anybody’s room. I have a hard time sleeping. These guys are not getting up and not going home. They’re all staying here.
Zeenat: On this one she was totally opposite of the Manjis. The Manjis are night owls. Farida was someone who would want to go to bed very early.
Hamida: Not only that, she can’t sleep in other beds. She wants to have her own bed. She was just up and down fidgety. I remember that very well.
Zeenat: Over the years she actually became a Manji. She would stay up.
Jackie: I just actually want to share my first meeting with Farida. I actually was at 102 Collingsbrook. I had just started dating Al. They had come for lunch. She lost her wallet at Bridlewood Mall. I don’t know if you remember that incident. She lost her wallet. She came in to the house saying – I lost my wallet. I lost my wallet. Then she says – Oh well, it’s just a wallet. I was so amazed at the lack of stress. There was a life happens kind of attitude. That always stuck with me. Mohamed was just as casual about it saying – It’s just a wallet. Everything will be fine. I was just amazed at that because I’d never seen that in adults before. It’s ok. Everything’s going to be fine. That was my first impression of her. She had lost her wallet. She was just at kind of at ease with the whole thing. That stuck with me for some reason. I never forgot that encounter. It was just one of those things.
Mehroon: To add on to that, she would come to my place and she would forget her handbag. She went home and remembered – Mehroon, I forgot my handbag. This was her practice.
Jackie: Then I got the real impression on my first impression! On that note, what was your first impression of her? Your very, very first impression, what did you think?
Zeenat: I had never met anyone that was so warm. I’ll tell you a statement she made. She said – I had to come and meet you because I know how special you are for Mohamed. If there’s anybody that’s special for him, has to be special for me. Those were her words, which is very, very rare. You often find the wives of someone you are close to jealous of relationships like that. These were her words. Similarly, she demonstrated that. When I was staying with Amyn and Shamim and often would spend nights. If we were playing squash together or we went skiing together I would just spend the night there and go to work straight from their place. I felt more at home at their place than any other place. Even my own parents’ place, I know it’s my own home. But I’d go there and I’d actually feel like I was home. That’s why I said she ever more a mother as well. I actually felt I was home whenever I went there. That’s the impression.
Mehroon: My first impression was that she was very friendly, warm. You could talk to her in a very friendly manner. Being a sister-in-law or a friend – she became my good friend in no time. I would tell her my problems. She would tell me hers. Just on a casual thing, we would just talk. Being so comfortable with each.
Jackie: I’m curious – you met her in Saudi Arabia where life was very restrictive. She was such a free spirit. How did you see her in that environment?
Mehroon: There was a limit to so many things you could do. Once when we were in Saudi, at somebody’s house, in the backyard, they were showing films. You were not supposed to see the films. Very rigid in public. Once we decided to go on a picnic in the desert, we could not stand the heat. It was so hot. We came back. They had a nice house over there. No watching movies, limitations. I didn’t bother us as we were not drinkers.
Zeenat: Although they did have a group that would actually brew their own alcohol – beers and wines – in Saudi Arabia. They would have their own private parties.
Hamid: You can’t go out, step out of the house.
Mehroon: The women would really come out in the evening with their husbands. They could not go out on their own. You would see them with their husbands in the evening. The dressing too. No shorts or skirts. Long pants. I remember once I put on a skirt or something and my legs were showing. They put a stick. They were very strict about that, especially the dressing. In the evening you could go out, enjoy yourself. There was so food around the streets.
Jackie: I’m trying to picture Farida in that environment because I always knew her to be where she could put an oversize t-shirt on and dance. That’s what I always think about.
Zeenat: I don’t know whether Mohamed told you in his piece. On her way to Saudi Arabia, Mohamed said to her – make sure you dress up fully covered. Your neck shouldn’t be showing and your arms should be covered. She did. She gets on the plane. There are all these beautifully dressed, fully made up women in halter tops and miniskirts. She looked like a grandma. These are her words - I’m looking around and what was all this about? Why did he ask me to wear all this? Look at these women around. She started to chat with some women around her and make friends with them. She must have fallen asleep. When they were approaching Riyadh and the announcement was made that we’re soon going to land. All of sudden when she opened her eyes she didn’t recognize anybody because they were all covered. They all had burkas on. She said – It was pretty scary. I didn’t know who these women were. I couldn’t see their faces anymore. This is what they wore underneath. In Saudi Arabia they would have a women’s party. They would dance and they would do all of that. These women in their parties would dress up because all these women were very rich. They would go to Paris to get all the latest fashions. They would actually be wearing clothes underneath – more modern than any of us would wear. They would take their burkas off. They would get their hair done and everything. They would have a fun time, they would dance. She was always invited to those.
Jackie: Somewhat of a different question for you. What’s you most vivid memory of her?
Hamida: First thing she would say is not to eat anything, like outside food. All the time she would say – Don’t eat burgers, burgers are very bad for you. When I had people at home, sometimes she would say – Why are they always coming to your house and you have to do work and this and this. It’s ok. It doesn’t matter. I like it if they come. Sometimes she would fill a half cup of tea. I would say – Listen, don’t give half cup please. Fill it up! She would say a half cup is enough. I would say – No, no, don’t give half cup. (laughing)
Zeenat: Do you remember Paris? About half a napkin? (laughing)
Jackie: Tell the story.
Zeenat: We would go sit outside on their porch where they had the dining table every morning for breakfast. Every night we’d sit there after dinner and chat with chai and all that. When we setting the table and serving the breakfast, she takes napkins, she cuts them into half and then she gives half each. Everybody started laughing. It was so funny. She said we’re preserving the environment. She was so right. We didn’t really need the full napkin. Just the whole act of doing that was so funny. It then became a joke every single day about this half napkin.
Jackie: I heard they still do half napkins in Paris.
Zeenat: It’s a waste to have the full napkin. (laughing)
Jackie: What do you think made her unique?
Zeenat: What made her unique was that she had principles and convictions that she absolutely practiced. It didn’t matter to her what anybody around thought about her – positive or negative. People may have judged her. It didn’t matter to her. She believed in certain things. She lived them. She didn’t just talk about them. She actually walked the talk. Everything she told us about, she actually did it herself. That’s what made her unique. She also was somebody who said it to you directly, on your face. Whatever she felt. There was nothing behind the back. She said it and it was done. If she didn’t like something, you would hear about it. It was good because you knew exactly where you stood with her. There was never a grey area with her. She said it the way she felt it.
Mehroon: She was about the environment. If she saw me throwing these things – You’re not doing the same thing, throw it here. Save the environment. Once I remember she came to my house and she brought and orange and an apple. She brought a kit for allergies because she had done all these courses. Are you allergic to orange? I said no. Let me test you. She put the orange here. Just put pressure on here. Those equipment, she would put it on. No, you’re not allergic. Herbalist. She said - I don’t believe in this doctor’s medication, conventional medication. I know herbal is a slow process curing you. Environment, herbal, allergy, nutrition – she had gone through so many courses. Once she said – I want to open my own business near Moez. You had gone to the naturopathic doctor – Rahim? But that thing never happened.
Zeenat: I think also she just wanted to do things for everybody. The business aspect was not important to her.
Mehroon: She was a healer. She did look into it with that lady who was supplying her – Fatma – once I dropped her there on Don Mills and somewhere. She was really a natural person. Very natural. Like Zeenat said, she would just tell you on your face without hesitation. We would take it, rather than talking behind your back. Very straight forward.
Jackie: What made you laugh when you were together?
Zeenat: There are so many things. We were always laughing. We laughed at the silliest things. Anybody hearing might say – what’s so funny about that? Yet for us it was funny because there was always something that we could relate to that might have happened earlier. Whether it was about something we were watching together or whether it was about a family member. Sometimes you would remember anecdotes about the family and we would laugh. We would laugh about our times together when we were trying to learn skating and skiing in the early days and how silly we looked as adults falling all over the place. We would fall and then we would just laugh at each other. I was on the ground or she was on the ground and we would just laugh. All these moments that we had shared we often just re-lived and talked about those and laughed about it. The whole being together was, most of the time, a fun episode. There were times when it was serious. That would be when we were either figuring what we needed to do about dad’s situation or mum’s situation or some serious issue when Ma was in the hospital. We talked about certain things. Those were the only serious moments when we had to make some big decisions. Other than that, even in times of stress it was fun. It was a stress reliever.
Mehroon: She came home, we would sometimes invite Hamida. We would sit together, have tea and crack jokes. It was fun. Three of us. We used to laugh and laugh and laugh sharing jokes.
Hamida: Sometimes she would say when I come here – Why should I be left out? (laughing)
Jackie: I’m curious how you would actually spend your time together after you all retired, around the same time I believe. You all worked for the government. The real work started after, as Al says.
Zeenat: The government collapsed that day. (laughing)
Jackie: How did you spend your time together in your retirement?
Hamida: Before we used to meet. Now we don’t do much. Before we used to do a lot.
Mehroon: First we thought – what will we do? Sometimes you wonder. After retiring we got so busy. Of course my social work and everything. Helping people, find rooms and this and that. She retired a couple of years after me. I retired in 1998, when Alkarim got married, September 30th. She would constantly ask me – I don’t know what I will do. I’ll go crazy if I retire. There will be plenty to do. I was saying the same thing but I got involved in so many things. Still I’m involved. It is fun, retirement. So many people ask us too.
Hamida: They do. What are you going to do? I say - I don’t even have time!
Mehroon: You do your social work. You look after your grandchildren. You visit your children. There are so many things to do. We are all the time busy.
Jackie: How often did you get together, the three of you?
Mehroon: Once a week or so. Two weeks or so. If she had some leftover food - I have some leftover I’m bringing to you. We’ll eat together.
Hamida: She comes to the grocery store, Indian store. She calls me – I’m here. If you’re home I can come.
Jackie: I’ll often try to get together with her after she retired just to meet up for coffee. She was the busy one. I couldn’t get time on her schedule because she was busy seeing people, visiting, just whatever she was doing. She actually did make the time to help treat me with her practice. With Reiki, with her allergy testing. She did make the time for me in that regard. It was hard to nail her down for coffee because she had so many things to do. Always related to helping somebody.
Zeenat: There is one thing I remembered about the laughing. Her trademark, every time she entered the house we would say - The bag lady has arrived. Or she would open the door and she said - The bag lady is here! She would always come in with - I don’t know how many bags. She would have found something in the house she didn’t want. Could you use this thing? This is going to be useful for you, maybe you could keep it or give it to somebody else.
Jackie: I have so many treasures from her.
Zeenat: Right. She would always come with all these bags so we always said bag lady. Vinod’s name for her was Begum. He used to say Farida Begum. Any time she would call he would say - Begum! When she passed away, for him it was Begum is gone. It was really emotional for him.
Jackie: Why did he call her that?
Zeenat: I think he used to say Farida Begum, as in endearing and also respect. At the same time both. They got along really well. She looked after him a lot and always worried about him and his health. He would go – Fairda likes this. Lets’ do this. Let’s take her there. – whenever she was over at our place. She and I had a special relationship. They had their own unique relationship which was quite special as well and very interesting to watch. When we went to Turkey you could see how nurturing she was with him. It was quite amazing to watch. Anyways, the bag lady thing was always – she would walk in and say - The bag lady has arrived!
Mehroon: To add on to her jokes, once she had the nerve to tell me – Find a suitable girl for my uncle. Which uncle? Sadru uncle. His wife had passed away. I said - Where does he live? He lives in the basement of Izat. I said - I don’t him too well. What is his personality, character? How would I find a girl? Ok, I found one, Shubnam. So they were socializing together, music party. Shabnam always called me – Find me a partner, I want to dance. There’s no partner. I said - Here is Sadru. (laughing) They went but he didn’t want to take his car. He was so – money. Shabnam said – He comes to my house, parks the car in my garage and then I have to take him. He’s a good dancer. (laughing) It didn’t last too long. Even the tickets for the music party she would pay her own. She said – I can’t take that anymore. (laughing) So it collapsed. I said - Ok, you go your way and he goes his way. Then I said (to Farida) – This is the result that came from Shabnam. She said – No, no, tell her to quit. (laughing)
Jackie: I got distracted with that story. What was the one thing you could rely on Farida for? Absolutely, unquestionably rely on her to do for you?
Zeenat: Any issue that came up, I think I mentioned earlier that things for dad or finding help or a walker or anything, she herself knew a guy or she would do research. She called CCAC for this and do this, call so and so and you will get help for dad. She did all the research. It was proactive. I didn’t even have to actually ask her. The reliability was actually even beyond reliability where she was there with the help even before I needed it. I knew I could always count on here, which I actually really, really miss.
Mehroon: Regarding health issues, whatever I had I would call her and she would give me hints and tips about it. She had this $40, I don’t know what it was called, just put a drop not directly on the tounge but between bread. What was that called? She had it a couple of times at the Christmas party as a gift.
Zeenat: I know which one it is. In fact, I even have it at home.
Mehroon: She herself has lots of health issues on her esophagus. Once for the homage ceremony, was it Silver Jubilee?
Hamida: Golden Jubilee
Zeenat: She had it very bad. Then she had a skin issue too.
Mehroon: She had bought a dress for the occasion but she said she I won’t be able to wear it. She went and bought pants to cover her leg. That time she was really in very bad shape. She did end up going.
Zeenat: She recovered mostly with her natural stuff. In one case, for her skin, she has to do cortisone. Other than that, natural.
Hamida: Same thing. I had a blister in my mouth. I still have that medicine she gave me. I’m just holding now. When I had the blister she gave me this medicine. Put one drop. That helps.
Jackie: She was always prepared with a remedy. Even before you asked for it. I had surgery. She had made a compound. She brought it over to me, gave me instructions. I threw away everything else I had bought from the drugstore and started using that remedy. It was like a miracle drug. I didn’t even have to ask. She just showed up with it and said try this for your scar. This is going to help you. I still have that jar and I’m hoarding it. I still use it actually. It’s all natural so it’s lasting. One thing you could always rely on her is that she was there to help.
Mehroon: As soon as hears that you’re not well she could come help.
Jackie: Absolutely.
Part 2
Jackie: Zeenat, tell me the hardest thing about losing Farida?
Zeenat: The hardest thing is losing half of my soul. It’s really tough. While I’m very, very happy for her. She always used to say – I don’t want to live a long life. I just want to go very fast. No issues. She got what she wanted. I’m very pleased for her. I know she’s in a good place. I know she’s watching over us. I know she’s not far actually. But she’s not here. I can’t just pick up the phone. It’s been nine months but I still often will see something – an email or some information or an article – and I’ll say – I should send this to Farida. I suddenly remember I can’t do that anymore. Or I want to ask about something that I’ve read or something happening to me. I can’t pick up the phone and ask anymore. She’s not there. Just not having that smile, thus the photograph on my wallpaper. That smile, that voice – I just miss that.
Jackie: Mum, what do you miss the most about her?
Mehroon: I miss her phone calls. Ten o’clock in the morning she would call me – What are you doing? Had your breakfast? She would ask me something about recipes. How you make pilau, this and that. Something to do with that. Quite frequently she said to me – I’m ready to go now. She was saying that – I can go anytime. I’m ready go. I said – What makes you think in this way? She said – What is there in this world? All these pressures. We all know she’s in a better place. Even Mohamed uncle said the other day – Through I miss her but I know that it’s good for her. She’s in a better place. I miss her when? In the evenings and at night. During the daytime he’s busy. He has friends around him, his family around him. That is the critical part, the evenings.
Jackie: Hamida, what do you miss about her?
Hamida: Sometimes she calls me and she wants a recipe. She asks me I want a sev recipe. I thought my god I don’t have any recipes. I just dump everything here and there. If I have to make sev in order to give her a recipe (laughing). If I measure, I can’t make things good. She says I want a recipe. My god, now I have to measure everything in order to give her a recipe. Also I miss when, the day before, we were together. We went to the bhajan. Oh my god. She couldn’t eat food. I was too hot, too spicy. Why didn’t you bring yoghurt? You could have brought yoghurt with you. Then we went to McDonald’s. She said I want to eat ice cream because I ate that very hot stuff. I’m going to have ice cream now. We’re sitting and chatting and talking.
Mehroon: When we used to go out and eat she would have a container of yoghurt. Once she forgot to bring yoghurt. We were at a hakka place near your house and she went across to the Indian place to get a container of yoghurt.
Jackie: If she were here today, what would you want to say to her?
Zeenat: There are so many things I would say to here that I probably didn’t say when she was around. Even though she knew what all this meant. How grateful I was for everything she did for me. Yet I think would want say to her again how special all that was. When she was in the hospital and not responding the same things are going through my head. Farida, wake up. I want to say things to you. Talk to you. Most of it would be about how grateful I was for everything she did and everything was to me. Also, I want to laugh again. I want to joke again. I want to do things again.
Jackie: What would you want to ask her if she were here today?
Mehroon: That’s a difficult one. You know still I can’t get over this. That she’s still there. It’s very hard to get over it. Even Mohamed uncle was here for lunch the other day. He said the first thing, he went for this bereavement session.
Zeenat: He and I went together.
Mehroon: He was trying to explain what they were saying. He said the first thing is that you have you to accept the fact. That’s number one. She’s not there for you and she’s not going to come back to you. The first thing is to accept this. Then you can set your life according to that. She’s not going to come back. My critical part is evenings, he said. When you’re watching TV or a movie together. Tea together. Something like that. He said I’ve accepted the fact now that she’s not there.
Jackie: You’re still having a hard time believing that she’s gone?
Hamida: Yes. Same thing.
Mehroon: It doesn’t really sink in. It seems that still she’s there though we don’t see her.
Hamida: She came to my dream once already.
Jackie: Tell us.
Hamida: She asked me for lasern ja ladu. She said I have to take lasern ja ladu in khane to do dua. (laughing). I told Mohamed uncle too.
Mehroon: Once she came to my dream too. But only ten seconds or something. Your dad was sitting next to her. Then she disappeared. Very, very brief.
Jackie: So she’s always on your mind.
Mehroon: Mohamed uncle said How come she doesn’t come in my dream?
Hamida: She came to me. She came to you too. I have to send lasern ja ladu to khane. (laughing)
Zeenat: I remember her saying once to my sister-in-law. She was very close to me, my mother-in-law. Everybody was saying so-and-so came in my dream. I said She’s not come in my dream and she was the closest to me. She’s never come into my dream. My sister-in-law said to me It’s because she doesn’t want anything from you. She’s got everything she wanted from you.
Mehroon: That’s true maybe.
Zeenat: Who knows? So she still wanted the lasern ja ladu!
Mehroon: So did you make lasren ja ladu?
Hamida: Ha.
Jackie: Has she come back to your dream?
Hamida: No.
Mehroon: She got what she wanted!
Jackie: You’re done!
Zeenat: We all knew she was a simple person. She didn’t want much.
Hamida: She was saying to me When I die, don’t put sari on me. Just a white cloth. I don’t want to wear a sari. I don’t want this. I said listen. Write down first what you want and we can go accordingly.
Mehroon: She was very simple.
Zeenat: I have to tell you the hardest thing. The hardest thing was talking about the sari. She would prepare everything before a trip. For Jubilee and all of that. For Golden Jubilee when they were going for the trip to Dubai. Their first one to Dubai. She said Come and help me with organizing what I should wear. We went through her wardrobe and her saris and everything, what she would wear and when. The jewelry she would wear, all the accessories and all that. We said Monday do this. Tuesday do this. She said to me Why don’t you come with us? At least you’re there to help me out with the Jubilee. I was supposed to go to London for my work. I said Ok. I can do a round trip. Toronto to Dubai to London and back. I did that. I went with them and actually stayed in the room with them. They put a cot for me. Before her event I would go Ok, wear this. I’d line up stuff for her. Get her all ready. I even have pictures of Dubai when we were all together. Because I went, I volunteered for the darbar, for the congregation. She came me, stood in the line with me to register. She was going to be with Mohamed. I could volunteer so I did all of that. This time for the homage ceremony she had everything ready. Diamond Jubliee. She had it all in Maa’s room. She had everything lined up. She sari and her purse and her medicine. Her soap. For her skin she was using a certain soap. Everything was ready. When we were talking about what sari to put on, of course we said we should put the sari she was going to wear at the homage ceremony. I asked Mohamed. Mohamed said I know where she’s got all her stuff. So come over and you’ll probably find it there. I went over and I went to that room. I found the sari. I saw all of these things there. That was the hardest thing to go through. Because it was all done and ready. During the telecast, Rena and I, we were going to come sit with you guys but there was no room there. Alkarim was there. Alkarim and I were texting each other as to where we should sit. Rena and I just sat in the next room from where you guys were and where Alkarim was. We were sitting there. As we were watching, the whole procession comes over. Mohamed there and no Farida beside him. Rena and I, the whole time we just balled our eyes out. Those two were the hardest things.
Jackie: She was ever the practical one. She got herself ready.
Zeenat: She got everything ready for us.
Jackie: How do you think Farida would want to be remembered by everybody that knew her?
Zeenat: Her dancing. I think for everybody in the family, she would want us to remember her as the life of the party. Always dancing. There are people outside that knew her. What they think and what they remember of her is exactly what she would want them to remember. Which is this warm person who invited everybody into the family. I don’t know if this is one of the later questions or not. The people who got to know her through me. This is my in-laws and also my business friends - Morey and his family, Sharron and all, Gerhard. Even yesterday Gerhard was over and he was talking about her. They knew everybody in the family. They got to know everyone and they love everybody. But the person that drew them into the family was Farida. They always felt – even Sharron, Morey’s wife – Morey was fine because Morey’s always been in to the family. He’s a Manji. Sharron kind of felt like an outsider. Farida’s the one who drew here in, walked over, made the effort, sat with her when dad passed away or at the lunch and actually drew her in. Ever since then Sharron comes to everything. Morey would come and Sharron would go home after a while. She was saying that it was the warmth that drew people in to the Manji family. That’s what they saw her as.
Mehroon: After she passed away there were so many people that came to me saying that when my mother was sick she would come home to do Reiki and massage. We didn’t know about all these things. There are a couple of ladies in khane saying she was such a wonderful person. Always helping out for the sick person. She really looked after my mom so well. Every week she would come and massage her. She was on her death bed. Do Reiki for her. Bring medicines for her and everything. This lady, the daughter, brought a gift for her. A Punjabi dress. She gave it to me to be given to Farida. Farida opened it. Farida told me this orange colour won’t suit me. I’ve given it to somebody. That lady said – I hope she wore it. I said yeah, she wore it. She really liked it. What am I supposed to say? (laughing) Until now when I have du’a for her, I always tell this lady du’a karave. Forty days or three months. She says tell me when it’s one year and you do du’a. I will definitely make something and bring it for her. One day she made makate mimina. She said I brought it for her because she really liked it. She had given me that recipe.
Hamida: She makes the party lively. Always she dances first and makes everything happy (laughing). Yesterday I was just thinking about how she was doing it.
Jackie: She had a really unique style of dancing.
Mehroon: We have two very unique dancers in our family.
Hamida: Sadru uncle and this one. (laughing) They make the party lively.
Mehroon: Sadru uncle would not even hesitate, even in khane, a music party. Even if there are circle of ladies. He would dance in the middle.
Hamida: She was dancing on the day she passed away. On Eid.
Zeenat: My last view of her, my last actual vision of her was her dancing. Then we said goodbye to her there and we left while she was dancing. Showing me the new Jubilee dances.
Mehroon: The new steps of the dance.
Hamida: Everybody remembers her dancing.
Mehroon: They were showing this Golden Jubilee movie inside after the Namaz and she was there. This lady sitting next to her saw her picture in the movie. Of course, you remember all these memories. Tears. You see yourself in the Golden Jubilee procession.
Hamida: She was also going to each person to say Hi. How are you? Eid Mubarak. Everybody was saying that she just came to us yesterday.
Zeenat: Hopefully she has an idea, wherever she is, of the actual impact she created. Because during the behtak on the day before the funeral at ICT we were in the lineup. Remember how many people there were. Somebody from the outside who was there, not an Ismaili, said that this feels like a state funeral. Both at the ICT and then at the funeral said this felt like a state funeral. That’s how many people there were. In that lineup, there were people who didn’t really know me but they asked me who I was. I said who I was and they said Oh. She did this for us. She did this for us. These volunteers were coming Don’t stop to talk. Please move. Because there were so many people. Three thousand people to go through. People I didn’t know would say She would take me to the clinic. She took my mother to therapy. She brought us this medicine.
Jackie: Did that surprise you?
Zeenat: It didn’t surprise me. What surprised me was the number of people. I knew she was doing this. She never told me who they were. But she always told me that somebody is going through this and I’m going to go there first and then I’ll come to you. Every time she would come to me, she would run some errands before she was coming. I knew she was doing a lot. But the magnitude of the impact she’s had was shocking. Literally shocking.
Mehroon: She was participating in a group of cancer survivors. Once she told me Why don’t you come? At different houses all cancer survivors. Everybody tells their own experience, what you went through, the treatment and everything. Farida Amersi’s wife was a very close friend of her. She same to the hospital, remember? A few others too. She used to give names. All cancer – group of 15 people. She would go to help them out and participate. Once she told me to come with her. I said I’m busy of something like that.
Zeenat: That was shocking.
Mehroon: Even that father who had a flea market store and his wife was suffering too. She had cancer. She used to approach the daughters too. Why don’t you come and relate us the experience of your mother? Somebody from their family said that it’s very hard to get these daughters. They are always busy working. I said you have to approach them. One of them at least would participate. I think she did finally. Every month or so, every three months they used to gather.
Zeenat: She also used to belong to a book club. Everybody would read a book and then they would go and discuss.
Jackie: Did you know that about her?
Zeenat: That I knew. She would talk to me about the book she would be reading and what they were discussing.
Mehroon: Her life was very busy.
Zeenat: So many different interests. The most intriguing thing was her independence. She didn’t need anybody else to do any of what she was doing with her. Sometimes you go I wish I had somebody with me, a friend with me. Let’s do it together. She was totally independent. She did what she wanted to do completely on her own. Didn’t need anyone to support her or be with her or accompany her. The independent point of view, the independent way of living on her own. It was great because Mohamed was so busy and travelling all the time. It didn’t matter because she had her own interests and her own life that she lived. As well as being with him.
Mehroon: Even Izat’s daughter, when she was sick for such a long time. She dedicated her time towards that girl. I think she fell while walking.
Zeenat: She had some other challenges.
Mehroon: Stroke or something. She spent so much time with her. Then I used to ask her, after she passed away How is Izat? She said Don’t’ talk about Izat. Izat has lots of friends. They all covering her up. They came to her house and cleaned the whole house. She has so many good friends, close friends. I’m not worrying about her. Though this was her only daughter and she’s a single mother. She said Don’t worry about her. I said If she’s ok then fine.
Jackie: We talked about your last vivid memory of her which was her dancing. What was yours, mum?
Mehroon: Dancing.
Hamida: Dancing.
Zeenat: We all were there at that time.
Jackie: I remember her swimming in Zawadi in Zanzibar in her blue bathing suit. We hung out in the pool. She swam. She didn’t want to get her hair wet but then ended up just diving right in. I always remember that moment of her being in the pool with me. I don’t even know what were doing. We were just kind of goofing off, quite frankly. Because that’s what you do in a swimming pool. She was not above goofing off.
Mehroon: Dancing and swimming.
Jacking: Dancing and Swimming, yes. I remember the wind and we were talking about the wind the wind in Zawadi and how intense it was. I don’t know if you remember that, mum? It went on and on forever. I think it all started to drive us all crazy. She insisted that we take our dinner from the outdoor restaurant to inside. She made the chefs set up a dining room inside a communal area because we couldn’t take the wind anymore. She insisted on having everybody move in and we sat there.
Mehroon: That guy went up the tree and brought some madafs for us.
Jackie: She asked him to climb the tree to bring some coconuts down. I have a very wonderful memory of her as my last one.
Mehroon: I had some pictures. I sent them to Mohamed. The Zanzibar trip.
Jackie: Her dancing in Apricot Guest House. We have this beautiful picture of her. Actually, it was at Eddie’s parents’ house. There’s a picture of her dancing. It seems like everybody has that memory of her dancing.
Zeenat: That last moment in khane she was dancing. The day before we were all together at the bhajan.
Mehroon: Oh. Bhajan was the previous day?
Hamida: It was the previous day, Saturday.
Zeenat: She recorded the bhajans. She was listening to the bhajans. She said to me These are so good. Mohamed is missing. Then she actually recorded a few on her phone. She went home and she insisted that Mohamed listen to them. Look what you missed.
Hamida: She went up to those statues.
Zeenat: She said to me Can we go up on the stage? On the stage they have all their different gods, the statues of them. She said Can we go up there? I said Yeah, we can. Let’s just cover our heads and go up there. So we went. We all went. As we were going, we were reading each one. They had a name. This is Krishna. This is so and so. There was one which had no name. She said Do you know who this is? I said I don’t know. I looked around. I thought I should ask somebody else. I asked and they didn’t know either. (laughing) I said Whatever. It’s a god! We kept going. We got off the stage. She said I feel so much at peace. Especially when I see the mandir stuff. I said It’s probably true because we all came from there. We were converted from Hindus. Our forefathers. There’s probably a connection there. A lot of our ginans have the same things. I said Yeah. I can totally understand.
Mehroon: This was the previous day at the bhajan.
Zeenat: At the lunch the food was really spicy. She came can brought the dahl to me. Again, back to no wasting. She said I can’t have this. Can you or Vinod have it? I had already had my lunch. I said Give to Vinod. I’m sure he’ll have it. She said I don’t want to throw it out and waste it. So she did that and Vinod took it. Reena was with the other girls serving. She asked Reena Where are you going to khane tomorrow for Eid? Renna said I don’t know. I think we’ll go to Scarborough. Will you go to Scarborough? She said No. I think we’ll go to ICT. That’s what she said to Reena. We went home. Reena told me Auntie Farida was asking and I think they’re going to ICT. I said Yeah. Probably because Mohamed wants to go to ICT. Then in the morning she had a sent me a WhatsAp text. I still have it. Are you coming to Scarborough? I was still sleeping so I hadn’t answered. About 20 minutes must have gone by. I hadn’t answered. She called. She said You coming to Scarborough? I said Yeah. We’re coming to Scarborough. But aren’t you going to ICT? She said No. You come to Scarborough, I’ll come to Scarborough. I remember saying to her earlier on, some months before, after dad passed away. I told her I can’t go to Etobicoke anymore. The reason why I now come to Scarborough is because I feel very sad. Because mum isn’t there and dad isn’t there. I feel depressed when I go there. I come to Scarborough because then I see the rest of the family.
Mehroon: Manji clan.
Zeenat: It’s nicer to see the family. Now I come all the way to Scarborough for khane. She would call me before anything, lailatul qadr and every time You coming to Scarborough, I’ll come to Scarborough. I’ll keep you company. I don’t want you to be alone. On Eid they were going to go to ICT before and then she called me in the morning Are you coming to Scarborough? I’ll come to Scarborough. That’s when she came to Scarborough. We were together and that was the last dance.
Jackie: Thank god she did. If Farida were here or if she came to you in a dream …
Zeenat: Asking for ladoos? (laughing)
Jackie: What do you think she would say to you about her passing?
Zeenat: I think she would say she’s in a very happy place.
Hamida: Same thing.
Zeenat: I think she would say we should never mourn her passing. I think that’s what she would say.
Jackie: Does that help knowing that’s what she would say?
Zeenat: Yeah. That’s what I always think about when I’m sad. I know she would not want anybody to cry after her or to be sad. I know we all are, and we miss her. It’s really for us that we’re doing it. If we were thinking about her, she wouldn’t want that.
Jackie: That’s not her spirit.
Zeenat: That’s not her style. That’s not her spirit. That was never her.
Jackie: Same with you?
Hamida: Same. She was a person who goes is always happy. We will suffer and miss her.
Mehroon: Exactly. We are struggling here.
Hamida: We will always miss her but the person who is gone, she’s in a better place.
Mehroon: One time, very recently, this elderly – I think he was 78 – he passed away. The next day his wife passed away. Remember? They were buried together.
Hamida: The funeral was together.
Mehroon: The wife was in the nursing home. Her husband was not well or something. He passed away and the next day the wife passed away. They both had had the funeral on the same day.
Jackie: They had a shared destiny.
Zeenat: I remember when dad was in the hospital, the last two weeks before he passed away. On the last day when we were all gathered there. You were there too. The doctors had basically said this is it. We were still waiting as to what was going on. At one point she came to me and she said Come with me. She took me downstairs into the cafeteria. Let’s sit here. Maybe you’re holding him back. She said to me. She said Let’s go. Let’s go downstairs. Let him go. You say goodbye and let’s go. We went downstairs and we sat downstairs for quite a while and we talked. She said You’ve got to just let him go. Maybe because you’re in the room, maybe because you’re there, you’re not letting him go. It didn’t happen at the time. Then we came back. They actually took the thing off and we were all there. That was also the strength that she had at all moments to think about the situation.
Jackie: She always had such a unique way of looking at things. A perspective that you would not expect.
Zeenat: You would not think about. Get out of this room. Come here. Come with me.
Mehroon: It’s true, I think. When there are people around …
Zeenat: People close to them, they hold them back.
Jackie: Is there a special story or something that you want to share with us?
Zeenat: Yes. There’s a very funny story. Really funny. We always laughed about it. Mohamed and Vinod and Farida and I always laughed about it. I used to live with them. I think somebody was visiting. We had given them my room. I was sleeping on the sofa in the living room. Mohamed used to go to padoria (morning) khane every day. I often used to go with him. I would come back and go to sleep. Mohamed would sit there and do work. That particular day we came back. Because he was working and I would be in the living room and the lights would be on he said Go sleep in my bed because I’m working. My room was given to somebody else. I got into bed (laughing) and Farida and holds my hand and says Darling. Darling. (laughing) I’m not your darling dear. (laughing) It was so funny! I’m not that kind of a person. (laughing) We laughed. This was the story. Every time we would get together I said She was making a pass at me. We always laughed about it. I was married then and Vinod and I always used to talk about. I told Mohamed You’re the darling but I’m first the darling. It was such a funny thing. She thought it was Mohamed who same into bed. That’s the story I always remember. We always laughed about it and joked about it.
Jackie: Darling, I’ve never heard that story before. Mum, tell us your story.
Mehroon: There are quite a few. Quite a few moments. From the top of me head I can’t remember.
Jackie: I’ll tell you a quick one. I remember when we were at the cottage. We had a two story cottage. Adam was a little baby. It was brutally hot in that cottage. Do you remember Collingwood? We were all dancing, of course. As the Manjis are apt to do.
Zeenat: Is that the one where we saw the ghost?
Jackie: No. This was the one that was not very nice.
Zeenat: Oh, right.
Jackie: I believe it was the rustic cottage. We were all dancing. It was around the time I had gained a lot of weight. I don’t know how far into our marriage we were. You do that, right? You gain weight after you get married. I was very insecure about it. I felt very self-conscious about it. Especially when we were all up and dancing. I had tied this sweater around my waist thinking it would hide my bum. (laughing) It would make me look smaller.
Zeenat: Not make it look bigger. (laughing)
Jackie: Just because you kind of want to cover up. You feel very self-conscious. We were all doing this dance and going round-and-round. She came up to me and she yanked me out of the procession. She yanked my sweater off and she said Take that off. You don’t need that. It’s too hot in here. I said I know. I know. I made the excuse that I was cold. She said I don’t believe it. You look great. Just keep dancing. I remember thinking that, wow, she picked on my insecurity and yanked the sweater off my waist. She gave me a little tap on the butt and made me go back and dance. It always struck me as really unique. She was perceptive of everybody around. Noticed everything about everybody that was around her. What stood out for me in that moment was that she marches to her own drum. She never cared about anybody. She actually had on an oversized t-shirt, no pants, bare feet. She was a free spirit. I always admired that because I’m always properly – hair is combed, makeup is on. I never had that freedom in my life that she had. I loved that about her. She picked up on the insecurities of other people around and made them feel better about themselves. You just went about your business. That’s going back to the comment you all made about how she told you what she thought but was always with best of intentions. In that moment I felt liberated. I actually felt free of my insecurities, about the fact that I had gained weight. I was amongst people that didn’t really care. She made me see that.
Mehroon: I’ve seen her in long t-shirts.
Hamida: She wears printed inside and printed top at the same time.
Mehroon: Big t-shirts.
Zeenat: She liked it.
Hamida: She said As long as I’m comfortable, I don’t care. I don’t care what people say.
Jackie: She was such a beautiful woman. Attractive.
Zeenat: Look at her smile.
Jackie: I’ve seen pictures when she way younger. Al’s had pictures of her around the house of when she was younger. She always struck me as being a really beautiful woman. All the women in her family.
Mehroon: She’s photogenic.
Zeenat: All the sisters
Jackie: She was so natural. I remember she had asked me to help her prepare for an event where she had to dress formally. We were trying to pick out some outfits. She came over and she showed me the shoes. I was saying Why don’t you wear some heels? She was like I’m not wearing heels. That’s ridiculous. I’m going to wear my comfortable shoes. It never occurred to me that she was passed the age of wearing heels. She always seems like such a young spirit. That’s something that I’ll never forget about her. She had that freedom and self-confidence that you don’t see in a lot of people.
Mehroon: Once she had lost so much weight but then she gained it back – about twenty five pounds. Her face was really fuller and nice.
Jackie: But she never cared about that. Did she?
Mehroon: Just take it …
Hamida: … a day at a time.
Zeenat: There was another day that I remember that was really funny. It was dead winter and there was a blizzard. She and I were coming home from work. We took the bus together. We thought we’d stop by and get some groceries along the way. We picked up bags. We each had bags of groceries and got off the bus. The bus would stop a little bit before where the road was. We could just take a short route to their apartment. But there was a hill to climb. There was no real path. It was all grass. We always did that. This is dead winter. There’s snow and ice. We had these bags of groceries in our hands. We both got off the bus and we said We can just go from here. We both went up and both slipped down that slope. The groceries are out of the bag everywhere. Apples rolling over, oranges rolling over. We’re both sliding. We were laughing our heads off. It was so stupid to do that. We could have just gone around. But no, we wanted to go the shorter way. Here we are lying on the ground. For a good five minutes we just stayed on the ground there laughing our heads off and looking at all the groceries. This is so stupid. (laughing) Then we gathered ourselves and crawled up. Even getting up was harder because we were on a slope. Trying to get up and we’re sliding again. Trying to get up and we’re sliding again. Finally, on all fours we got up. We started to pick all the groceries. I don’t even think we picked everything up. Then we made it home. I don’t know if Mohamed remembers this. He was there at home and he goes What happened to you guys? We’re completely covered with mud and everything. It was so funny. It was things like that. We did such stupid things in those days. I still remember those.
Jackie: You laughed about it in the moment. You’re still laughing about it.
Zeenat: Exactly. Happy memories.
Jackie: That’s all the questions for today. Salim, thank you very much for doing this for us. I think it’s been emotional but a happy moment.
Mehroon: Emotional. Happy.
Zeenat: Therapeutic.
Jackie: Therapeutic.
Zeenat: Thanks for organizing all of this. Thanks for the questions.
Hamida: I thought I’m going to do a test. But this is not a test.
Jackie: You did wonderful. You passed.